- May 15, 2018 at 7:45 pm #5729
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The problem with free tradeable legendary items, or BiS items is that at some point there will be market saturation of them and it will be like vanilla D3 where it was easier to just farm gold and buy the item than try to actually kill mobs to obtain it. I think “Bind of Equip” solves most of these problems, as soon as someone uses it, the item is taken out of the market.
One option could Crafting, let the components be tradeable but the item it makes be bound to the crafter. Then people could farm/sell components to craft the best items, but the outcome and stats would be bound to the crafter and RNG gods of crafting, haha.
I’m not really sure what the best solution is, but I do agree that BOA style like Diablo3 is crap and a real turn-off for me.
I agree with those people who stated there is is no suitable replacement for D2, which somehow managed to balance crazy powerful items, drop rates, rarity of items/stats, and free trade.
I’m so far impressed with Last Epoch, and hope you dev’s can figure out a trade/loot/drop rate system that works.May 15, 2018 at 7:51 pm #5730
5 ptsNo points.First 100
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BOE is the same as BOA from a trading or economy perspective, sure you will lose a certain amount of items as they are used but the majority will be hoarded by those playing the market, bought low sold high…. BOE results in even higher price inflation historically. Let’s be honest with ourselves, ARPG’s have been around for decades and there are certain elements that work well, AH, API indexing from stashes, weighted RNG, chase items etc…. if these components are not balanced and managed well the economy disappears such as we saw in WOW with BOA or D3 with the removal of the AH, or POE with no AHMay 16, 2018 at 10:43 am #5764
1 ptNo points.Elder Supporter
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As a POE SSF player, make sure that the game doesn’t require trading. Not all players want to trade.
The biggest issue I had with D3 at launch as the only loot I ever got was via the auction house. I want to find my loot, not purchase it. When D3 released their expansion and removed the auction house, the game for me became much better. One could certainly argue it is too easy to get the loot you need in D3.
I want to be able to find my own loot, and craft/upgrade items if possible. I understand it will be more difficult but the game should be playable and not a horrible experience if I don’t want to trade.
KenMay 16, 2018 at 11:02 am #5765
5 ptsNo points.First 100
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Ken, I have a different vision of what i would like for this game. POE and D3 were mismanaged messes and unfortunately only what is available now. I am here because i want a game with a better economy and i am probably not alone. it sounds like you want a game that already existsMay 16, 2018 at 1:37 pm #5777
4 ptsNo points.Elder Supporter
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I suggested in another post to make legendaries modable. (just immagine the satisfaction of a perfected legendary with maximim added stats, thats what you play for isnt it ?) It was a common D2 “complaint” that people would all have the same build with all the same legendaries. They listened to the customer and made yellow items have a primary role initially in D3. That turned out simply not to be fun and they turned back to legendaries.
Trading does play a very important role here. Because D3 doesn’t have trading, the legendaries needed to be much more common. Because of that and the fact that you are not building wealth for your trading game, you very soon had little equipment goals anymore, so the ancients and primal ancients were needed. Unfortunately, it does get kind of boring after you have gotten your initial set in a few days.
I think trading is fun and legendaries are fun and i would try to make a system that incorporates both. I also think upgrading legedaries is fun. The question is how to make it all work well together.
I would consider not doing an AH for trading at all and just let it be a more personal experience where you create games called “wtb Itera Bow offer 6000 shatter stones”. If an AH is used, it should have certain limitations. Part of the D3 AH failure was that it was it was too good. It had all the filters and stuff and would be way to inviting to over-use (dump everything you find in there, get coins, buy what you need) D2 trading on the other hand had some charm. I have also played other games where you could literally set up shop while AFK, but thats more a thing for MMOs. Maybe an AH with a fee high enough that it will only be used for high-end items would be good.
I think upgradable legendaries besides being cool, could also be used to prevent this market saturation you speak about. Either make the legendaries bound as soon as you mod them, make them have a chance of fracturing or let them be upgraded by shards gotten from shattering the same legendary. (or a combination of those ofc)
I would keep legendaries be rare as they were in D2 and make the upgrading use only like 10 or so legendaries on average to make 1 perfect one. Not make it require so many that it only works if legendaries are common. If we have trading, they can’t be common. If we have no trading, i think D3 mistakes are going to be repeated. (either having yellows be the best items, which just doesnt give that same satisfaction, or having the legendaries be too common)
If they are rare but only need 10 for a perfect, in diablo 2 terms, that would make it very feasible to have perfect upgraded stormshields, shako’s etc and it would reduce them flooding the market. A perfect upgraded windforce or grandfather would be a dream only happening for a few on the server.
May 16, 2018 at 3:11 pm #5794
- This reply was modified 3 months, 1 week ago by Alchemist.
2 ptsNo points.Elder Supporter
- Total Posts - 18
Part of the D3 AH failure was that it was it was too good. It had all the filters and stuff and would be way to inviting to over-use (dump everything you find in there, get coins, buy what you need) D2 trading on the other hand had some charm. I have also played other games where you could literally set up shop while AFK, but thats more a thing for MMOs. Maybe an AH with a fee high enough that it will only be used for high-end items would be good.
D3’s AH problem was rather multifaceted, but it was too good mostly because itemization was really bland/boring, with an overabundance of useless affixes because every build scales with CHC/CHD and main stat, and because there wasn’t much else, attack speed also scaled better than any of the stats I didn’t just mention.
There also wasn’t much other than the 13 item slots for a player to look to improve. Nearly no character specific customization post 60 (now 70), and no runes, interesting crafting, charms, or other alternate progress systems that involved choice.
This pushed over randomization onto the 13 item slots. Which is what made the AH so good. I tried playing without it, but ended up relenting, when trying to play a non-OP class in inferno, and not being able to find upgrades for a really long time.
Ultimately, if D3 had more interesting items, and had other tradables (runes, charms, relics, etc) in addition to the item slots, the drop rates could have been adjusted better, so that some items were still rare and might require the AH or trading another rare item to get (if you really wanted it), but that most of the playerbase could find upgrades for a sufficient amount of time before the min-max phase without needing to visit the AH.
So far, the game systems in LE seem to have the forethought and depth to allow the Bazaar to exist without having the same issues that plagued D3. They’ll also have a much more involved community with an Alpha and Beta phase to iterate on the rules and restrictions, which should help a ton.May 17, 2018 at 5:03 pm #5886
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Bit late here, just played through the Alpha and urgh, this trading system sounds horrible to me. Of course, I haven’t played it, so it’s all just speculation anyways. I’m a PoE vet, playing since open beta, for context.
Powerful unique items being available for 1c is one of the things I like the most about PoE. It might sounds stupid, but I don’t like grinding very much. In fact I hate it. What I love in ARPGs is theorycrafting builds. Cheap powerful uniques that are available for 1c are usually out of meta. That means to properly utilize them, you at least need the ability to come up with a powerful build on your own. I like theorycrafting cheap builds for leaguestarts, rake in the monies, because everyone else throws away their currency by playing meta builds while I’m fully geared with a few ex and can farm high level content quicker than most people.
To me trying to “outplay” the meta is much more interesting than mindlessly grinding and playing the lottery.
And of course there’s the issue that (in PoE) uniques are very often build enabling. Grinding with a build you don’t want to play because the build enabling item you want isn’t available yet is the worst fucking feeling ever.
Looking at this with very PoE tainted glasses, I’d wish for the *exact* opposite. Make all gear *but* uniques untradable. This is of course not an option if Last Epoch is going for a more D3 approach to uniques/legendaries, but I personally hate the D3 approach, so *shrugs*.
Let’s look at a concrete example in PoE. Rare jewels. If you are crafting rare jewels in PoE, you don’t try to roll a good jewel for your particular build, you try to roll a good jewel for whatever build, sell it, and then buy the one you need for your build from the money you made. This of course floods the market with good rares, because you keep any good rare, not just good rares for your particular build.
Items in PoE like Atziri’s Disfavour that is just simply a unique axe that’s straight up better than most rares is simply dumb and should be removed.
Just my 2c.
May 23, 2018 at 10:57 am #6263
- This reply was modified 3 months ago by henrymiller.
No points.Elder Supporter
- Total Posts - 2
I have played PoE since early closed beta (2 acts, no oversoul, trading by throwing things on the ground) and i hate the ease with which you can upgrade your character. It really turns me off when i know i can gear my char for endgame with 10 chaos, and 99,99% of the loot i find is essentially worthless. So i really like the direction 11h is taking with the Bazaar, i hope it will keep finding legendaries meaningfull. If not ill just play SSF as in PoE 😉 – not gonna miss out of what looks like a great game
Dang yo! Keep calm and carry onMay 24, 2018 at 2:41 am #6339
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I just wanted to point out that one of the reasons there is so many “worthless” unique items in PoE is that they have overbuffed the drop rates of them at some point. Things like goldrim used to sell for exalted orbs in Hardcore and uniques in genral were more difficult to get because they were actually very rare. Additionally, there was less diviniation cards for deterministic farming. Because PoE has been going more and more casual over the years, they decided they they have to buff the droprates, they introduced more cards AND ontop of that they have been pushing the clear speed meta of clearng maps in 45 sec.
Imo well adjusted pace of clearing and proper drop rates of legendaries should be enough to keep those items valuable. So many restrictions on the trading is very off putting, like i really really dislike it and it would be probably the reason why i wouldnt give the game a proper try apart from just messing around now and then.May 24, 2018 at 8:34 am #6392
5 ptsNo points.Elder Supporter
- Total Posts - 24
Without looking too much into this, I’m just going to throw in that whenever I hear restrictions or control over a game, I will be concerned. On the other hand, I’m all for trying a system the developers want to try because it’s not like they can’t change it especially if the community speaks out unless they want players to leave the game. You can’t make everyone happy but there is nothing wrong with trying your own vision in your own game and molding it to in a sense go half and half with your idea and community idea together.
My concern is, since everyone wants to compare with PoE, that this game is not free to play. I feel like the systems are almost backwards. What I mean is, I could see PoE since it’s free to play having LE type of system with the restrictions on trading and what you can trade whereas LE would have the openness of PoE’s trading except with the bazaar and not third party sites to search. LE is not a free to play game and I have never enjoyed a game that restricted me like items not being tradeable, waiting a certain amount of time until said item can be traded or items that are so rare like a Mirror of Kalandra that it almost feels like it shouldn’t be in the game. I understand the excitement one would get and rng plays a big role in these games, but I put thousands of hours in PoE and personally feel it’s ridiculous that I still have not had one drop. Not that I’d ever use it, but to me an item like that just doesn’t feel right in a fast paced arpg. I’ve played so long that if one dropped I probably wouldn’t get that excited and just say oh yay a mirror, guess I’ll just throw it in my stash and never use it. Chase or build enabling uniques or other types of items can be rare, but like others say, there are players who don’t trade which wouldn’t affect them unless the drop rates are terrible.
With that said, I am not happy with restrictions especially in a game that was bought, even a small inventory because I usually farm for hours and hopefully won’t have to go to town every few minutes. I know there’s reasons like bots and rmt type stuff and I know you’re trying to look out for the community and health of the game but also don’t forget we still want to have fun and not feel restricted. This is all speculation though and still early development so we’ll see. Show us your system when it’s ready for testing. I’m sure it’ll at least feel a little refreshing being able to search for items in the game rather than alt tabbing or looking at another screen on another site 😉
Hate the game, not the player.May 24, 2018 at 11:40 pm #6425
19 ptsNo points.Epoch Supporter×2
- Total Posts - 49
I don’t have much more to add. But I’ll just say I’m quite leaning towards the arguments put forth here that supports a less restrictive trading experience. But certainly, let’s try out what the devs have in mind and iterate along the way in alpha/beta 🙂
JerleJuly 23, 2018 at 8:36 am #8861
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you are making a strong point here. it’s not just about the business model. The drop rate and the item classification (common, rare etc) AND the items stats is a subtle thing. Again, one D3 example : honestly the worst i think : these ‘primals’ items as i’m sure you’re aware of. basically super super rare items coming with max stats. Well, it’s dumb, 90 % of the time : you do not get an item for your class or anything useful, also, max stats yes but having a ‘primal’ item that is completely useless is a mistake, a big one. for example a primal set item should come with at least one or 2 primary stats. So sure, it keeps people in the game; farming like donkeys, but it’s ridiculous. That D3 ‘system’ completely killed the crafting ingame, why crafting when you can spend your days farming for that primal item.. ?July 27, 2018 at 5:50 pm #9059
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I am having a hard time adding any additional arguments that would benefit the conversation. As previously stated “It’s not like they can’t change it”, I say go with what devs have envisioned and then go from there. I am impressed with the communication between everyone, makes me want to be a part of the community more. I totally look forward to watching as this game develops and maybe inputting something of value. Thanks allJuly 27, 2018 at 6:28 pm #9060
SarnoEleventh Hour Games
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I am impressed with the communication between everyone, makes me want to be a part of the community more. I totally look forward to watching as this game develops and maybe inputting something of value.
That’s great to hear!
Glad to have you with us. 🙂
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